Curse

Mental Leteci · Nov 20, 2006, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Did I miss the whole point or they just said you should use blackout to interrupt ghost?

EDIT: David was faster.

DIH49 · Nov 20, 2006, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

Did I miss the whole point or they just said you should use blackout to interrupt ghost?

Yeah they did. Don't worry, I corrected them.

Edit: But not fast enough!

Cass · Nov 20, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

14 pages and what is the summary you're passing on to the developers, Gaile? I'd appreciate some feedback.

qvtkc · Nov 20, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

The win conditions for altar matches are keep the ghostly hero alive. I'm talking about real win conditions where you can get around rock/paper/scissors setups and win despite not having a convert hexes on your bar or something. New maps would cover this well I think.

8v8 and 6v6 offer the same level of strategy because the win conditions for each are identical. The only difference is you get less characters to either hold with, or kill with.

Sorry for replying so late,

No, win condition for altar matches isn't keep the ghostly alive, if you have the altar he can die and you will still win when the timer runs out, unless the other side caps right? So win condition is keep the ghostly hero alive OR kill/block/keep interrupting the other ghostly hero etc., in all, keep the altar, not the ghost. I meant that with the usual lack of imagination there would maybe be a gametype where you immedeately won by killing the ghost of the other team, or immedeately lost if your own ghost was killed. Kind of like a GvG battle (hmm, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea after all...)

And no, strategy in 8v8 is much greater since a large part of strategy is to plan out what each member of the team will be doing, what skills s/he will bring, etc. Also to plan counters against another 8v8 team is also more strategy than planning counters against 6v6.

supaet · Nov 20, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

To all that who thinks heroes should be allowed in hoh:

You can argue all you want about how heroes are legit way of playing in hoh, how they are better than playing with humans, how it makes you leet when you win hoh with them, how it gives you the chance to play in hoh because of you don't want to play with humans, and so on.

But the simple fact is that, using heroes in hoh is NOT FAIR. Why? why should a full team of a human players FORCED to play against a single human with 5 ai's? why? why should one human with 5 ai's FORCED to play with 6 human players? Why force me to play heroes battle when I'm in hoh??

For example, when you play pve, trying to kill an ai monster, suddenly that monster become human control and pwns you. How you feel? Using heroes in hoh gives you a certain advantages and disadvantages. Even if one argues that they even out, but why should they exist in the first place? They either make hoh a hero's only arena (just because people who love to play with heroes thinks that hero's battle sucks), or kick heroes completely out of it. All I want is to play a fair game for pvp. human vs human, or human+ai vs human+ai.

Alleji · Nov 20, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by supaet

For example, when you play pve, trying to kill an ai monster, suddenly that monster become human control and pwns you.

ROFL.

I can only imagine how hilarious that would be. /volunteers for controlling random ele/rit/warrior bosses.

phasola · Nov 21, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

It just hit me that my main source of income (sigils!) are gone.

GG Anet for making me poor.

shardfenix · Nov 21, 2006, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

Why do you think Arena.net allows Heroes in HA then?

Oh, please. Arenanet lets you do dumb things because it takes months for them to get their heads out of their asses after each mistake or bug they put in the game. Remember the attack speed cap bug? That only took them 4 months to solve. I'd feel better about GW if FEMA ran it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

PD counts as an interrupt which song is impervious to, and Song of Concentration is unremovable.

*sigh* I don't need PD to interrupt through song. I can do it with a savage shot if I wanted to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

Yeah I have a hard on for PvE which is why I have been in several top 10 gvg guilds, been to playoffs, and played tombs ever since 8 w/mo's were holding halls.

So you want to keep heroway in HA because you have a hard on for PvE? It's nice that you like bragging about going to playoffs with gimmick builds, but stick to the topic of the thread.

Scizzors · Nov 21, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

So you want to keep heroway in HA because you have a hard on for PvE? It's nice that you like bragging about going to playoffs with gimmick builds, but stick to the topic of the thread.

Dude the topic of this thread was lost years ago. It started off as a suggestion thread, then turned into 'cry cry i want 8v8' back.. after that mutated into compare and flame wars (random useless comments) then became 'omg heroes are super gay and stuff' thread. so really i think it doesnt matter anymore what any1 says or whines about in this thread. every1 has bragging rights and every1 can say purple monkey dishwasher whenever they feel like it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Geez, Randomway,

lorph · Nov 21, 2006, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

I think this is simply equivocating the common notion of value with my argument's specific notion of value. If we replace your terms with my above properties we run into no intuitive difficulties [...] There isn't any contradiction in having one but not having the other.

I absolutely agree that there are no contradictions if you use your definitions. The point I am trying to make is that making those artificial definitions makes your argument inapplicable to reality.

Take the following example. I arbitrarly define the following terms.

Sad: Having the quality of human sorrow.
Alive: Having activated biological processes that allow animation. No afterlife in this situation.

Using your definitions, can you consider something that has value except it can't be accessed by anyone or anything ever? We sure can: a stash of gold hidden in our imagination. No one can use it, including the imaginer.

Now can we consider something that has the quality of human sorrow yet is not alive? We sure can: a zombie that feeling sad that he has no arms.

So here we have a stash of gold in our imagination, and a zombie that feels sad. We can conceptualize both of them in our artifical world.

However, in the real world, these things just don't happen. Things need to be alive in order to be sad, just like something valuable needs to be accessable.

If you are going to argue about a real situation, it helps to base your argument on real assumptions.

Quote:

On a scholarly note, and not with respect to my above arguments, they haven't actually observed quantum mechanics to my knowledge. As such the evidence is theoretical, not empirical. Further, and this is going on pretty poor memories, I seem to recall an individuation problem with quantum bodies that precludes one from determining whether they actually do pop out of existence.

The very computer you are reading this on is an observation of QM. And even if these "bodies" never pop out of existance, they are effectively valueless just because they are isolated from the universe.

Quote:

You have faction (a quality of Bness) that helps determine value (Cness). This is a separate issue from the value of the arena in and of itself (Aness).

I think you will have a hard time arguing that the introduction of faction is only an issue of accessability. Many talented PvP players had stopped playing when they realized they had to grind hundreds of hours to get the right skillset. Faction brought back valuable competition to HA.

Quote:

A function is a factor related to or dependent upon other factors, unless I am mistaken.

Yes you are mistaken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

3 V(a,b,...) where a = 0

Anyway, let me break down my general statement into a more concrete example so you can grasp the concept.

1 V = a+2b.
The presence of 'a' has a definate change in V, therefore a must be a variable in the function V.

2 V = 0+2b .:. V = 2b where a=0
Ok lets say that a is "removed". Then you get an equation like this. Now it seems that V is "independent" of 'a' because aha here is a point where V can exist without any 'a's in the equation. This is incorrect.

Here is where you go wrong. Just because there is a state of V that isn't influenced by 'a', this does not mean at all that V is indepedent of 'a'. You state that HA can still be there even if faction didn't exist. This doesn't change the fact that factions can influence HA, therefore HA as a function is still "dependent" upon the absence or presence of factions.

Quote:

You have faction (a quality of Bness) that helps determine value (Cness). This is a separate issue from the value of the arena in and of itself (Aness).

I think you will have a hard time arguing that the introduction of faction is only an issue of accessability. Many talented PvP players had stopped playing when they realized they had to grind hundreds of hours to get the right skillset. Faction brought back valuable competition to HA.

Quote:

It seems to me that if you accept bots you have to fully accept them, and that if you reject them (as I do) you have to fully reject them. Otherwise you run into the chauvinism objection.

This like saying I advocate hugging instead of handshaking, while you say: You must either choose no touching, or full body contact. This is a false dilemma. By your methodology, Ghostly Heroes, Guild Lords, etc. should be removed.

Quote:

But I gave you a differentiating factor that you have not yet defeated. Namely, the difference between a teammate and an area effect.

So you are alright with AI being an "area effect", but not a teammate. This seems like "chauvinism" to me. Also by your reasoning, if I told you to guard the Guild Lord and only use pindown and troll ungent, you would become an "area effect", though we know that you and [archer] can do more.

As for heroes only replacing low-skilled players, my view is of a merit based HA and that heroes serve as adequate replacements for humans that meet a low standard of playing ability and should be practicing. If these humans were displaced from these groups, they are not displaced from participating in other groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

So you want to keep heroway in HA because you have a hard on for PvE? It's nice that you like bragging about going to playoffs with gimmick builds, but stick to the topic of the thread.

I was explaining to someone here how I don't have a "hard on for PvE" when I PvP all the time . And even if I were to brag about it, I would be proud of it, since my guild was the only one out of the masses with the gimmick capable of making playoffs with it while consistantly beating championship guilds, instead of other "gimmick" builds that farm rating fast. I think this speaks much more about experience than your ranger spike history.

Again, you prove that you have difficulty reading and thinking about these concepts while being inflammatory at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

PD counts as an interrupt which song is impervious to, and Song of Concentration is unremovable.

*sigh* I don't need PD to interrupt through song. I can do it with a savage shot if I wanted to.

I rest my case.

Scizzors · Nov 21, 2006, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Lorph you never* cease to amaze me.

NeHoMaR · Nov 21, 2006, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scizzors

Lorph you never* cease to amaze me.

Yep, and must be banned for "offtopicer" <- Is that a word?

Scizzors · Nov 21, 2006, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

Yep, and must be banned for "offtopicer" <- Is that a word?

Nope

The Silver Star · Nov 21, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Seriously what is lorphs problem? this topic should be closed purely because he seems to have taken it 100% off topic +_+

lorph · Nov 21, 2006, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Silver Star

Seriously what is lorphs problem? this topic should be closed purely because he seems to have taken it 100% off topic +_+

This entire time I have been arguing for my thoughts on hoh, and people who disagree attack my points with false information flawed logic, and attacks on my character. If supporting my views on HA is off topic then so be it, I will stop posting.

Though I would like to mention

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

share your thoughts, go for it! Keep in mind that all input is welcome

JR · Nov 21, 2006, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorph

If supporting my views on HA is off topic then so be it, I will stop posting.

Please don't. It's refreshing and rather unusual to see well presented arguments in the HA section.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 21, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Lorph: Best. Post. Ever.

You go, Girl.

Mental Leteci · Nov 21, 2006, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Oh God, I love you Thom. : ))))))))))))))))))))))

The Silver Star · Nov 21, 2006, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Lorph: Best. Post. Ever.

You go, Girl.

Fantastic.

Thomas.knbk · Nov 21, 2006, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

Did I miss the whole point or they just said you should use blackout to interrupt ghost?

EDIT: David was faster.

I never said you should, I just pointed out that it's far from impossible to interrupt a ghost.

As for heroes, Computer controlled AI is not the same as PvE. In PvE you know up front what you're going to face, and you can bring specific counters to that. Heroway is different, because one could give his heroes any skills. Actually I think HoH is less like PvE then it used to be, when 92.5% of the teams was IWAY. Back then you could make an insidious/empathy/SS team, and get a few consecutives, because everyone ran iway.
I'll admit: it's going that way again with searing lames, but please do not confuse AI with PvE.
I don't say I want heroes to stay. I don't. I think the main problem is that they devalue fame too much, but please do not say it's PvE